I won't say 'no'--how could I?
Why do normal men chase me but Mormon men run away from me? I thought I must have some kind of flaw that only matters to the mormons, which is why I asked this question here. But someone explained things to me. And of course it was much simpler than anything I could fathom. *This same person has sent me a correction.* He just wanted to explain some differences in dating behavior of the two populations. He did not mean to dis on the mo men and has rebuked my generalization below as being too cynical. So noted.
Mormon boys (in general, not all) tend not to be as assertive when it comes to dating, partly because they don't have the immediate sexual gratification incentive that normal men do. I was informed by a member of that sex that it's a lot easier to take risks for a woman if you think you might be rewarded with sex in the very near future. Makes sense. Mormon boys have no such incentive in near sight so they don't bother to invest much energy in pursuit unless they are really sure they really like this girl and want to marry her. How they can figure that out without dating is a mysetery to me, but it does save one money. Ouch! I am overloading on cynicism today.
Because I only dated regular boys in high school and through college and long after, I missed the social lessons on chasing a Mormon man down. Silly me, I kept feeling rejected when the guys didn't ask me out, didn't call and walked away. I didn't know that in mormonland the ladies have to chase men because we just aren't worth the work since they can't get into our pants. I should have known! And, well, this also explains the laissez-faire attitude many of the over 25s have when it comes to dating. Their hormones have settled down so getting hitched just isn't a raging priority. Which is the opposite situation for women. Our hormones get cranked up more every year. I suppose this means I have to decide to give in, hang up my dignity (what dignity?) and catch me a man!
Ok, I'll admit this does not explain everything, maybe it explains nothing. Except that regular men want to get in my pants so that's why they hit on me and mo men don't hit on me because they know they can't get in my pants. I have more to offer than my hot body ;-P Maybe that's not apparent unless someone reads my blog?
Come back for more TRUE stories of the strange, sad and pathetic exploits of me not having sex in the city.
37 comments:
I'm not fully sure if the "sex incentive" isn't a driver for active LDS men. They still want it, and they know the hoops they will have to jump through to get it. With that in mind, they will do some courting and flirting to get there. My time as a Young Adult and at BYU seem to confirm that thought.
Granted any man who only wants to score will be after you and every woman he meets. You just have to filter those guys out.
One thing that puts women in the role of hunter in LDS circles is the ratio of women to men. Sadly, there just seem to be more active LDS women than men. At least that is what I saw at BYU. A woman has to do something to break out of the pack.
Also consider that many LDS men, however well intentioned, are idiots. Perhaps they see you as a graduate student and fear your success and drive. You need a man who will be your equal. In the LDS urban dating pool, that is no easy feat. I wish you the best!
Message from Anon
Speaking as a non-mormon, I would imagine that Mormon men would be even more inclined to be assertive and get into relationships than non-mormons, because the sooner they get married, the sooner they can get laid. That's certainly what happens in the Christian Fundamentalist world.
Message from anon
...I'll beg to differ that sex drive is a real factor for the 'older' single lds men. My boyfriend is 30 and I STILL have to do all the stopping ; )
Message from Jill
You're missing the point. Your boyfriend never asked you out. He did the 'I have a legitimate reason for us to hang out that has nothing to do with me wanting you so lets hang out' routine. And you told me you had to make the first move. He's 30. That behavior is exactly what I'm talking about.
Message from JL
As to your theory:
When you repress a natural instinct for long enough it ceases to become a burning drive. Not that it goes away, it's just that it has been beaten down like a red-headed step child for so long that it knows if it comes out that it's going to get severely hurt.
It's like you said though, all of the really aggresive guys find the passive girls early on in the game and they hook up and get married. Aggressive females tend to be more fiercely independant (which is why I'm almost positive that my sister will never get married) and have much higher standards. Once you break the 25 year old barrier it's not as simple as dating for a couple of months and then getting married. With a lot more life comes a lot more caution.
As to what Jill said... sounds about right.
Message from dJake
Apparent fierce independence is really just a mask over severe deprivation of love.
Message from JL
this blog rocks. you rock. keep rockin.
Message from mike
I think the no-premarital-sex rule has much more to do with Mormon early marriages than many Mormons want to admit. It forces the issue: I knew that that if I kept hanging out with my college girlfriend, we were going to have sex. Just a fact. Because of my Mormon beliefs, that led me to think seriously about whether I wanted to marry her or not at a relatively early juncture in our relationship (we'd been dating for a year). If I did not have an issue with pre-marital sex, I could have put off the marriage thinking for years and years.
On your point, JL, I think it may simply be that there is a large class of Mormon men that are easy-going, adaptable, optimistic, and, like most 20-25 year olds, have an incredibly strong sex drive. These guys get married young, like I did. The guys that are left are more picky, less straight-forward, jaded, and less horny. Its a recipe for bad dating prospects for Mormon women.
Message from anon2
Interesting concept JL... If fierce independence is truly a mask, why not conquer the underlying problem. Interesting concept to consider as I go out and spend the next couple hours shooting.I think I might just end up running my mind in a circle.
Message from dJake
Anon2,
You are probably right. The same likely goes for the women who remain single past 25: More demanding of life and men, less passive, less amenable, more independent. What a mess! No wonder the men you described and the women I described have such a hard time getting together. And, as dJake pointed out, once you get past 25 both sexes have bruises and baggage from their past failures making them more guarded.
Message from JL
If it's not love
Then it's the bomb that will bring us together
Message from Varant
ROTFL!!!!!!!!
Well said Varant. Where can I get me one of them bombs?
Message from JL
JL, I was watching a program on Julius Caesar on the History Channel, and they keep advertising an upcoming program on Caligula. This reminded me of one of my favorite lines from a Smiths song, "Caligula would have blushed." I'd like to see what you would come up with as a post under that title.
As for this thread, it is very definitely the case that the tendency towards young marriage among LDS is tied up with our sexual mores. When I came home off my mission, I told my friends, with tongue only half planted in cheek, that I fully intended to be either married or excommunicated within a year. Fortunately for me, I managed the former, so the latter didn't happen. For me, becoming a 30-year old virgin simply wasn't an option, and it never would have happened. I could never have been a Steve Young.
My daughter has a pet peeve about Mormons marrying so early just so they can have sex. I'm sypathetic to a degree, but that's an easy position for her to take, since she has a boyfriend she is intimate with. If one decides to abstain from sex outside of marriage, let's face it, that creates a huge incentive to get married.
Message from Kevin Barney
Well, I've known a lot of guys who have gotten into their late twenties or early thirties and are rather "self contained."
You are right, one learns to not need as much and it affects a lot of things.
Message from Steve M (Ethesis)
"Apparent fierce independence is really just a mask over severe deprivation of love."
I would consider myself fiercely independent and I've always felt very loved. That isn't to brag or anything, I just have had a very easy life and I'm sure I don't deserve it. Or maybe I'm more dependent than I realize.
I don't have any insight into dating and men though. It's a totally foreign world to me. You make it sound terrible and fascinating
Message from Lisa
Not fair... you can't remove stuff before I get a chance to read it through and commit it to memory
Message from dJake
One other thing that happens is that a fair number of "older" guys get desperately lonely, but also get used to women who are as fickle and demanding and responsive to arrogance vs. introspection as you've remarked, and feel an insurmountable wall between themselves and ever succeeding at finding a real person to marry.
Those guys, often emeshed in graduate school or jobs, have pretty much just given up.
Message from Steve M (Ethesis)
By the way, shooting refers to video cameras. Shooting guns for a couple of hours could be fun though.
Just a different spin on what Steve is saying, as guys get older they start to get desperately lonely and they start to build up a wall of their own. This wall is their own defense mechanism against the torrents of the Mormon waters that encircle them. My uncle for example has dived head first into the deep end of his career. Very witty, very clever, incredible amounts of fun to be around, but his claim is that he's had it with women who make him climb Everest.
The further along guys get, the more "freedom" we find in doing our own thing. I haven't totally given up on the chase, but as each day goes by the thrill of the hunt leaves me that much more. A hunter can only go so long before he realizes his cause is hopeless and turns to other activities to pass his time.
Message from dJake
dJake,
Why is the cause hopeless if the numbers are so in the men's favor? What do you think is going wrong?
Message from JL
Dating is kind of like sales. (I know a lot about sales because I produce sales training DVDs all day long) You are essentially selling yourself to another person, attempting to show that person the value of the product and the urgency of picking it up. As a salesperson you are used to getting rejection, but as time goes by and your sales ratio drops you start to lose interest and eventually look for something else to do.
If dating is like sales and guys are salesmen, those salesmen who can't make any kind of deals (can't get any meaningful relationships started) or can't secure any kind of recurring business (long-term relationships or marriage) tend to drop out of the market themselves and look for other types of work.
What's going wrong? Depending on the guy, somewhere between 25 and 30 if the "sales job" isn't working out for them they want to find something that is. The problem is that the "market" has a tendancy to be very hostile at times and subjecting one's self to it gets old after a while. If the "market" would present conditions that would lend themselves to being more favorable, then people wouldn't give up their "sales jobs." Some guys have yet to learn that their "sale approach" is all wrong and that they need to fix it. But a vast majority of "salesmen" use perfectly acceptable "approaches" and yet can't make "sales." (Love my use of quotation marks here?) The "market" becomes more vicious with age, and how to solve that problem I have no clue.
If it is as you say, that women put up fiercly independent masks on to cover up their deprivation of love, then those in the "market" need to undergo some kind of mental rebirth. As a guy it hurts to be around all my friends who are slowly getting married off one by one, but this is a pain that is becoming more and more dull. And the way that most guys dull it is by putting distance between themselves and women, at least in an emotional sense. Maybe that's part of the problem too. Guys handle that lack of love much easier than girls because we are wired differently. Being an objective creature allows me to say this isn't working and it's time to find something else that will work. Girls being subjective creatures (correct me if I'm wrong) see the problem as an ever increasing void that must be filled. Girls don't put emotion away nearly as easily as guys do.
Why is the cause hopeless even with the numbers in the favor of my side of the aisle? Because the "market" controls the conditions. The guys merely respond to the conditions of the market.
Message from dJake
dJake,
I appreciate your honest response. It's good to know what men are thinking when they give up. Now, I'm not angry at you, you're just describing the situation, but that whole scenario you described really pisses me off. So I'm going to discuss it and my anger is not directed at you, I don't want you to take it personally. That said, here's what I think:
The Women are rejected just as much as the men. And it hurts us as much as it hurts the men. Giving up for lack of success is completely irrational in this market. You only need one success. I have had no real success ever. If I did, that means I'd be married.
I have just been rejected recently by two nice mormon boys for no reason that I can see. They didn't even give me a chance by getting to know me or going out with me once. I am not unattractive and I did nothing offensive that I'm aware of. I'm very angry that while I am willing to date any nice mormon guy who doesn't immediately offend me, I am not extended the same courtesy. And I don't want hear that I scare men away because I'm too attractive, smart or funny. F-ing grow up already and get some balls. Yes, it hurts and it's hard and dating is a nasty scary business, but the women deal with it so the men should too. Boo Hoo they feel like failures. Guess what? A woman at church doesn't even exist as anything but an object of pity until she gets married.
And while the men can feel sad that their friends are getting married off and they aren't--the women get to watch their friends have babies and know that as the years roll by they come closer to NEVER having that chance because they are too old. I always wanted to have a big family with a lot of kids. Well, I'm 28 now with no prospects so I'll be lucky to have any kids. I've accepted that it's too late for me to have a big family now. Men are afforded the luxury of taking their sweet time. When they get hurt they might spend a year or more nursing that wound before they date again. And then they are very skittish when it comes to dating at all. So maybe they don't get around to having a 'success' until they're in their mid 30s, that means they had to be lonely failures for a long time. Boo Hoo.If I wait that long I won't be able to have children. That's not fair.
The reason women don't give up has nothing to do with our 'subjectivity' (which is VERY offensive by the way) but it's our rational, objective realization that we have a limited amount of time to marry before we get too old. So even though it sucks and we're hurt, we just keep throwing ourselves on the market anyway. I'm sick of whiny men who don't know how good they have it. I think I'll call my jewish friend and see what he's doing this weekend.
Message from JL
Tell your jewish friend what up for me.
I'm going to take my generalization to a personal level now. This is where I'm coming from, and I can't speak for anybody but me here.
In the past 18 months I have been engaged, dated two girls and yet here I sit, single. I've been out there working my ass off to get out there and yet I'm still here in singleland. I broke off the engagement because she made me choose between her and my family, it wasn't all that hard. The two girls I have dated "just want to be friends." While it is true that you can never have enough friends, I'm starting to get sick of the routine.
You are right, I have a luxury that you don't, but on the flip side of it, you have just as much power in it as I do. Because one person is only 50% of the equation here. As to the two guys, I don't know what their problem is.
From my perspective it's the same story almost every time. I meet girl, decide to ask girl out, maybe get as far as a third date and then get told "You know what, I'm not really interested in dating right now. We should just be friends." I go home, turn on the music so loud that my ears bleed just so I can numb out the pain.
I would give almost anything up for a solid relationship. Hell, I'd be willing to give up 12 hour days at the office, reduce my football watching to two or three games a weekend and give up whatever other freedoms I need to. I'm sick of repeating the cycle over and over again. Whiny men? I say picky girls. If I can't ever measure up, why keep playing the game?
Message from dJake
dJake,
From what you have said you are obviously not one of those guys. The thing about you feeling like you never measure up, the women don't either. That's just how this nasty game works. You won't ever measure up until you get married.
Dude, you've been engaged? I've never been anywhere close. You have been way more successful than I have.
I don't know you so I don't know anything about the way you date or how you choose women. But, just because the women you pick don't pick you back doesn't mean you were any less picky than they. How many women did you not ask out? It sounds like you aren't a picky guy.
But, because men get rejected more explicitly than women, we look like we're pickier. The women you ask out have to tell you they are not interested. Women are rejected implicitly everytime they aren't asked out or talked to or called. So in that way we do have an easier time. I usually don't have to hear some speech about being friends unless I'm being dumped. It sucks big time listening to someone say they don't want you. Men have to hear it more often but that doesn't mean you're rejected more often.
You know what you should do when you hear the friend speech? Say "No thanks, I have friends. I don't need anymore." I said that the last time I got that speech. It worked wonders. Didn't have to talk the guy again.
It's like my friend said, "The devil is working overtime to keep people from marrying and staying married. Right now he is laughing at single adults and the power he has over us. "
Message from JL
Ok, I'm about to do something cruel. Only because it illustrates my point, not because I think we are in a competition. You said you have been working really hard to find someone. I believe you have. And I know a lot of mo women are materialistic and shallow. You have probably been a victim of those women. And a lot of single mo women have serious psych issues, like your fiancee who made you choose between her or your family. That's sick. My guy friends have told me a lot of scary stories about the crazy women they've been out with. I'm one of those crazy women too. That's got to be very discouraging.
Nonetheless, Here's a comparison (I'm sorry):
18 months:
man=
dumped his fiancee, rejected by two dates. (And maybe some more women he asked out who said no?)
18 months:
woman/me=
rejected twice in last two months, once this summer, dumped in March by my internet bf, rejected in Jan. by man I asked out, in the fall by guy who strung me along for months(repeated rejection), by HT last summer, my best friend, the love of my life, guy I wanted to use, and 1-2 dozen men I wrote to on internet service...that's all I remember there could very well have been more.
I'm just showing that we all get hurt. A lot. I can't believe I haven't sworn off men yet.
Message from JL
JL, you say you wrote to 1-2 dozen men on an internet service? Was that by any chance ldssingles.com? What is that experience like? I have a friend who met the woman he married (she's from Brazil) on that service, and he swears by it, and thinks it is the thing for LDS singles to do. I'm curious what your experience was like.
Message from Kevin Barney
You want to get the comparison action going? I'm game. I always win the games I play :)
Since the begining of September, I've gotten shut down by three girls who I was told were interested in me. (Obviously not, but hey) dated chick b on and off throughout the summer, was told that we should just be friends because she couldn't marry a mormon. dated chick a from mid april to may and was told that we had to go back to being friends, had to break off things with my fiance in march, 12 months down the drain.
In the Adam Sandler movie Big Daddy, the kid is playing a game with the delivery dude. The name of that game fits in perfectly here.:)
Message from dJake
Whiny men? I say picky girls. If I can't ever measure up, why keep playing the game? ... ah, I've had those feelings. Opposition in all things ...
All I can say is that God is mindful. Perhaps you should try dating each other just for practice. I did some practice dating for a while (took people out who were friends and who neither of us expected to have anything go anywhere, but just to resocialize myself to dating at the end of law school).
Message from Steve M (Ethesis)
LOL
Amusing thought Steve... except I'm Partying in Provo while she's Celibate in the City... quite a bit of distance there.Otherwise that could go from an amusing thought to an interesting concept.
Message from dJake
Kevin,
I tried that one and others. I've got two posts in the wings about it. My life won't slow down enough for me to get to all these stories I need to write...so you'll just have to wait. I had very bad experiences and will never do it again.
Message from JL
I've learned my lesson on long distance dating. In fact, I had to learn it 3 times. No thank you! Move out here and we'll talk. Until then we should just be friends because I'm just not ready for a relationship right now even though I think you are super keen, ok? ;-)
Adam Sandler is a babe. But I've only seen that movie once and I don't remember the pizza boy game.
Message from JL
man, this is always such a tough subject. I think the frustrated members of both sexes are in many ways justified in thier feelings, thier frustrations, thier reasons for acting the way they do.
At some point I think that I end up a bit defensive- and have to resist the urge to just fire off in that manner.
Yeah, I think that sex (or lack of ability to have sex premarritally) does play a big part in mormon's marying as early as they do. But- I don't think that sex drive dying down after 25 is the big reason for mormon men over 25 being very passive in dating.
There are people of all personality types in and out of the Church. And there are a whole lot of passive daters outside the Church- and a whole lot of non passives within.
But come on- what would be required to be in a fairly serious relationship of more than a few months (say 6) outside of the Church is usually enough to make a marraige amongst us momos. How many men past 25 that are willing to actively go out and date have not at any time since they were 21 been in a relationship lasting longer than 6 months? Pretty much all of them have had at least 1 relationship longer than that.
Those types of guys within the Church that will actively go out and date who also buy into the melding of culture and doctrine that tells them they should be doing everything they can to find an eternal companion once they come home from a mission are going to do so. If almost every man who succesfully dates believes that the purpose of dating is to find a spouse (and soon) most of them do... leaving only those who aren't quite as succesful or actively seeking to date.
Outside of the mormon community there isn't this universal goal to be married by 25. Because there isn't- most people aren't. Which means all the non-passive daters aren't removed from the population.
yeah- the "you're too succesful"- "you're too intimidating" type of things are pretty crappy. But for those who are placed in the position of asking out- it is hard. I mean OK- maybe it does feel like simply not being asked is being rejected- but when women who don't have their crap together in any one area of life, let alone all the visible ones, are turning you down why in the world would you set your sights higher?
OK- say- me. I'll be turning 26 next month. Because of changing my mind on school a few times, leaving for a mission, all that stuff- I am just now finishing my undergrad. At 26 and in a singles ward there aren't a lot of women my age- those who are I've known for a while because we have both been here for ages- those who haven't been here for ages are almost universally 18 year old freshmen. A lot of them are nice girls- but quite young.
But then with women who are older- my age, a little younger or a little older- there is kind of a catch 22. Either they don't really have anything they do or going on- maybe they live with thier parents and are still just waiting for some one to marry them- usually this isn't too terribly attractive and even when going on a date with most girls like this it seems pretty clear pretty early on that it wouldn't work. But with those who have thier stuff together- they seem clearly well and above my league. As I sit here trying to figure out where the next few years of my life will be- peace corp, non-profit group- or maybe if my high standardized tests make up for a less than stellar GPA a decent grad school or law school. Why in the world in this situation would some one who TEACHES at one of these schools be willing to give me the time of day. SURE- she might flirt with me a bit, or be attracted to me- but why would I look any different to her than the 18 year old fresh out of high school girls look to me? Cute, nice enough to talk to, but some one you probably wouldn't want to date.
Message from Mike
Mike,
I hear you. But let me tell you a little secret that apparently they aren't teaching in EQ. Women don't judge men the way men judge themselves. You guys measure your worth by your accomplishments or money or success. Now, there are plenty of gold digger mormon women out there but they should be easy to spot, the rest of us don't look at those things. While I was working on my masters I had a boyfriend who had never been to college and was training to be a chef. I dated a guy recently who was my age and had never been to college. Both of them had qualities I adored. It's not about how many degrees you have. Everyone in their 20s is confused and don't have their careers figured out or going well yet.
I've been dumped more by men who were real losers then by the men of higher quality. And that really sucks and damages one's self-esteem. But it says nothing about you or the 'quality' of person you can 'get'. The girls who don't have their crap together and the loser men I've dated probably know that in the end you and I would be unhappy with them. Because if you are dating someone you think of that way to begin with, it won't work. Right? I've had to learn this myself.
Another thing I've learned, which you couldn't tell by my recent comments and posts, every individual is different. Every time you try with someone it will be different than it was with everyone else before. What I mean is, if you got shot down by one girl in grad school it doesn't mean every girl in grad school will shoot you down.
I don't know what you mean about most men over 25 having been in at least one serious relationship. Is that true? I don't think it's true for women. I haven't dated anyone longer than 6 months and I'm 28. What does that have to do with this? I'm tired so I probably didn't read your comment closely enough.
You're right, the non passive guys get weeded out early in mo land, unlike in the real world. So imagine what kind of advantage you'd have if you as a 26 y.o mo became confident and aggressive. I don't mean arrogant. Just someone who goes after what they want and ignores their fear. I'm telling you, do that in your ward and you'll get dates. Back when I was in a singles ward, the older women (I was 24) always complained about the guys who didn't seem to ever do anything or try. My friend who was very social and friendly and flirty with woman was the one they all wanted. And they lamented that more guys didn't act the way he did. Success-wise he wasn't doing anything stellar. He worked in a Godzilla toy import store and ha d a BFA. But he talked to the women in the ward and was friendly with all of them even though he didn't want to date all of them. The other men seemed afraid to look at one of us, like they were afraid we'd think they were interested.
I think the church should have dating classes, not just marriage classes. There is a serious disconnect between the sexes that is unnecessary and causing a lot of harm. There should at least be a manual explaining how the sexes see each other and communicate and what they want.
The women you find interesting are not above your league. If you're dating a woman you already think it won't work out with, she won't want to go out with you again. Women are better at reading signals, and if you thought that about them they would definitely know it.
Message from JL
I used to be an LDS single. I'm no longer either, so take what I say with a grain of salt:
The Law of Chastity works if you are, say, under 25 and wanting to get married. Keeping it after a certain point--I mean keeping it strictly, including eschewing all auto- and shared sexual activity and thought--makes it difficult to relate normally to the opposite sex (or same-sex, for those who are gay).
When I was dating and in singles wards, the "most righteous" men and women were those who had, or pretended to have, absolutely no sex drive--you know, the Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods. The bigger the bow (this was the '80s), the froofier the dresses, the tighter the tie around the neck, the more one was headed for GA stardom. In a culture where a sleeveless dress is shocking and immoral, I can HARDLY blame the LDS guys who don't have a clue about dating and relating to the opposite sex. Please give them a break.
Message from Mum's the word
You had asked about Michael, here is a link that explains him as well as anyone:
http://www.ericdsnider.com/view.php?srkey=263
Message from Steve M (Ethesis)
"Mormon boys have no such incentive in near sight so they don't bother to invest much energy in pursuit unless they are really sure they really like this girl and want to marry her."
It's a good thing I found out this now and not when I was in high school. Had I known this then, I would have missed out on a lot of dates. ;-)
Message from Kim Siever
Post a Comment