That is the question. Ha ha I wish. I don't have to worry about that question now or in the near future. Except....I kind of do. Because I'm old enough now that I don't want to waste time dating someone I'm not interested in marrying. I get hit on by a lot more non-mormons. And there are plenty of good men out there who don't happen to share my religion.
I don't want to end up in a marriage to someone with a different religion. I've seen how that can create problems. But, if it came down to it I'd choose someone with whom I thought I could have a good life over permanent singleness. Even if that meant marrying someone who's not LDS. Realistically, my chances for marrying a Mormon are not great. Especially since I don't put much effort into meeting them. I don't go to the singles congregation or any of their activities because they make me ill. I also don't fit their ideal woman mold, I'm not the kind of woman most of them want.
I'm thinking about this tonight because I had lunch with a very nice guy this afternoon. We get along well and there is some fairly potent sexual tension between us. Is he interested in me? I don't know. It's hard to say with these nice guys. Normally I would tell a girlfriend who asked me that question, "Yes, he is interested. How old are you, 12? He is a grown man, single, who wants to spend time with you. Who invited you over to his apartment so he could fix you brunch. Except you slept too late so it had to be lunch instead. And then he took you for a walk on the very romantic promenade. And he said that anytime you wanted to stop by in the morning for coffee or anything you are welcome. And you could even come over in your bathrobe and he'd fix whatever you wanted." Umm, so aside from that I can't say for sure if he's interested.
He's very not mormon, part of another religion spelled with the first letter J. Which means he can't be interested in me for anything serious. But he's not the player kind of guy. Am I attracted to him? Yes, but not in an obvious way. So I wasn't immediately smitten when we met, though I found him very interesting and liked him. There has always been a strong sexual tension between us but I dismissed the idea of a romance between us because of the religion thing.
Today, I couldn't decide if I wanted to date him or not. So I didn't flirt at all. I think. And I ignored signals from him. So I couldn't even say how much he was flirting with me. He has no idea, but right now he's in a very good position. If he started pursuing me aggressively I would completely go with it. But I won't pursue him because of my reservations. This is the point where a lot of men blow their chances with women. He probably won't pursue me because he's too scared because I didn't show obvious romantic interest and nothing will ever come of this. I'll bet 100 dollars that's what happens.
FYI: Men, if a woman isn't sure about you the best thing to do is make her sure. You can do that by making your desire clear, do all those things men do to let women know they want them. Don't act like you want to be her buddy. That's the second way most men blow it with women. If you act like you only want to be her friend, then that's all she'll want from you. That's why the slimeballs who skip "Lets be friends first" always get the girls. Don't make a woman guess your intentions, that's a big turn off. And 90% of the time she'll guess on the side of friends-only because it's easier and you just turned her off by acting ambiguously.
Anyway, I'm hesitant but ok with marrying someone non-LDS, so that goes for dating them too. I'm ok with dating this guy, but I'd need to know more about his feelings regarding inter-religious marriage and how close he is to his mother. Which means I'd have to flirt with him. And he'd have to make some overtures. So this is likely all moot. And the single life continues.
Come back for more TRUE stories of the strange, sad and pathetic exploits of me not having sex in the city.
69 comments:
Dear Celibate in the City,
My heart goes out to you, but I admire your courage to 1. write honestly about how you feel and 2. consider marrying "outside the faith".
Most women would not consider #2 because, hey, then you can't be exalted, right? God bless you for thinking of yourself and your needs.
Despite all of the liberation going on, women are still, genetically and biologically, women.
I'm not sure about men.
The situation of women in the Church is catastrophic. And no, men, including the Quorum of the Twelve, _don't_ understand. I think sometimes that women had it _better_ in Joseph Smith's time.
I would tell you: Marry whomever you darn well please.
Message from Shyguy
Is he rich? :)
Message from danithew
Sorry to break out the standard Mormon answer, but if you do get to a point with a non-member, where marriage is a definite possiblity, then you need to pray about it. I always forget that no matter what problem lies before me, if I just pray about it, I will get an answer, even if the answer is no answer. My mom was married in the temple to two men before she met the man who was The One. He is Catholic and a better man than the two Mormons combined. Temple marriages might have lower divorce rates, but they are just as suseptible to social problems as any other marriage. Just pray and follow your heart. You have a good head on your shoulders and will make the right decision.
Message from Jessica
I knew that "shiksa" meant something bad but the worst definition I had ever read was "female abomination." Usually though I think it's just used to mean "gentile woman you shouldn't be marrying." It's not something I'd toss around too often but I couldn't resist it just this once. Shame on me.
Message from danithew
I say whatever you decide is great. All we can do is our best with what we have.
Message from Sister T
I should have clarified my prayer statement more. I wasn't saying to pray over this guy. But to pray when/if you meet someone you would consider marrying. It is a bit too early to pray over this one, although with many young Mormons (especially at church schools) in your situation, the praying began after the first date/encounter, HA.
I find myself thinking about, even obsessing, over potential scenarios I could find myself in. What would I do, what would be the consequences of whatever decision(s) I made....blah blah blah. I try to tell myself to just relax and that the Lord will guide me and help me make the right decision(s) when I need to cross that bridge!
Message from Jessica
JL... I feel your pain sister. The thing I've found with LDS men is they know they're in high demand and so tehy feel free to treat women like crap. I have a non-member friend who adores me and treats me better than ANY LDS guy has EVER even thought of treating me. I completly understand how you feel.
Message from Sarah Marinara
I have to say "so what" if people read about themselves on a blog (when you talk about other guys, some who will, and some who won't and some who may have). What do they really read? Little about themselves, a lot about you in the context of themselves.
It is easy to think and to believe that you are the only one who feels alone and vulnerable and at risk. When you read someone else feeling that way you can read it to find criticism of yourself or to find that they are alone and vulnerable too. To find that just as you look at yourself and think "who could really want me" others look at themselves and feel the same way.
That you see them, with all their weaknesses and flaws and appreciate and like and even love them in spite of that.
And if someone reads here and is more embarassed than informed, it is one time that the Spirit is valuable, to see one through, past one's own fears and worries through to the truth.
If someone reads here and is upset, all you can do is wait for them to read what is really going on. Give it some time, blog on other things to recapture your love of students and teaching and your love of yourself.
Let life be life and hope that other people join you in it.
My two bits.
Message from Ethesis (Steve M)
like a good friend once said, "sherri dew's great and all, but i have no desire to be her. EVER."
Message from socal
I keep thinking http://tar.weatherson.net/archives/003919.html should be on your links list.
:)
Message from Ethesis (Steve M)
I guess I want to know what you think the ideal mormon woman is? It sounds like you have the basic qualifications, you want a husband, children, and to enjoy your marriage, etc...
Message from Aimee Roo
Aimee,
that's what the ideal mormon woman SHOULD be. But why don't you go ask some single guy at church what he's looking for and you'll hear something different. Unless he's lying. All I know is that they want someone 18-25 years old, beautiful with a perfect body and who likes working out so they don't have to worry about her getting fat, smart enough for conversation but not so smart that it bruises their egos, educated but have no big career ambitions, domestic, glamorous yet still loves outdoor activities, not too independent or opinionated, can argue intelligently but always lets them win, a perfect saint who also wants lots of sex.....
Am I being too harsh? That's what I've gathered from my experiences. But I'd love to hear that I'm wrong.
Message from JL
JL, you are not being too harsh in your description of the perfect mormon woman that LDS men seemed hard wired to believe they want. All I know is mormon guys aren't looking for a half mexican half honkey girl who's read more in the last year than they will in their life. I'm too smart and too pretty dang it... but I do want lots of sex :)
As for my opinion on marrying outside the faith... I've thought about that a lot... especially lately LOL. You know, honestly, if I felt like it was the right thing to do, if I felt like this person was going to make me happy for the rest of my life and I could do the same for them, I would probably do it regaurdless of their faith (or lack thereof) I have dated LDS guys who have been more disrespectful, grabby and flat out gross. I have never had a serious relationship with a non-member, but the ones I have been on dates with, or had less serious relationships with have been completly respectful of my beliefs and wishes, often so respectful that they stop things before they get started. I have NEVER had an LDS guy do that. But I have had several LDS guys take advantage of me, of a situation, and then blame me ENTIRELY for what happened. Obviously I haven't had the best experiances with the Mormon me. LOL. So, if I found someone who was my best friend, made me laugh, loved me loads, was a great kisser and wanted to marry me even though he wasn't LDS... I think it would take A LOT to get me to say no to that.
Message from Sarah Marinara
Lessee...
1. 18-25: Check! (I was 20 when we got married).
2. Beautiful: He seems to think I am.
3. Perfect body: Far from it.
4. Likes working out: Does dancing around like an idiot and occasionally lifting weights count? ^_^
5. Smart enough for conversation: Most of the time
6. Not so smart that it bruises his ego: He doesn't have much of one.
7. Educated but no big career plans: Taking classes to get an education, even though I'd prefer to be a stay-at-home mom. Check, check. (No, really!)
8. Domestic: To a certain degree
9. Glamorous: Only if I really work at it
10. Loves outdoor activities: We're pretty much homebodies
11. Not too independant or opinionated: Check and check
12. Can argue intelligently: Eh, sometimes
13. But always lets him win: (See above)
14. A perfect saint: Far from it!
15. Wants lots of sex: I'm about as rarin' to go as he is most times.
Don't worry, kiddo! Somebody out there is bound to love the kind of person you are.
Message from Sister T
In defense of mormon guys, I do know a fair share that fit the description of what you described. But in reality, there are far more that AREN'T like that than there are who are that shallow. I find that a lot of the guys I know are more than likely to go for the girl who is more interesting rather than the girl with the knockout body. Those girls are fun to hang out with, but when all is said and done, quality time in the long run is more about how much you have in common in the mental realm rather than the physical realm. Personally, I like it when I win all of the debates, but it gets old after a while if I'm not proven wrong.
Message from dJake
dJake,
I believe you. But, you just admitted that you'd want to be able to win arguments most the time. Would you feel comfortable dating a woman with more degrees than you? Would you feel comfortable even trying to talk to her? And what if this interesting woman wants a career, would you have a problem with that? What if she was very political with views that oppose your own? What if she was an outspoken feminist and everyone at church knew it? Would you be proud to take her home to meet the folks?
Am I wrong to assume that the majority of mo men would not want the woman I described above? I seriously hope I am. If so, I might consider going back to the singles ward.
Message from JL
Hmm, I know and have known guys like you are talking about, and the female equivilent to them as well.
Reminds me of one dear sister who went to Ricks (back when it was Ricks) and married a guy who had just gotten his AA degree and wanted my wife to know that I was ok, but she had married a real man, so that my wife could understand the occassional looks of pity she was going to get.
While we knew them he was selling cars and she complained that all her mother had told her to look for in a guy was someone with good hair who could dance and he had gone bald and quit dancing when they got married.
The problem is highlighted nicely in your post, though.
The kind of guy who wants that 1-15 list up there is also the kind who will be insensitive and sure of himself and that most girls will respond to. The kind of guy who isn't full of himself enough to be fixiated on the list sort of approach (and I need to blog on a funny guy I knew who had what he considered the ultimate list -- with elements that contradicted each other -- I wonder if Walley ever got married) is also the kind of guy who is uncertain enough of himself that girls are going to find it a turn-off.
It is fascinating to watch how people can't find each other, sometimes, because they are looking in all the wrong places (refrain from a Country song right here).
Sometimes takes a while to outgrow.
As for I believe you. But, you just admitted that you'd want to be able to win arguments most the time. Would you feel comfortable dating a woman with more degrees than you? Would you feel comfortable even trying to talk to her? And what if this interesting woman wants a career, would you have a problem with that? What if she was very political with views that oppose your own? What if she was an outspoken feminist and everyone at church knew it? Would you be proud to take her home to meet the folks? I can win arguments. I litigate for a living. But, I very rarely win arguments with my wife, because I start with the thought that she is probably right and I'd rather be right than win an argument.
My wife was a shock to everyone who knew me, and the joy of my life, even so. My secretary at work thinks it is cute that we are going on twenty years and my wife still makes me glow. Hmm, she has two bachelors and a CRNA to my one and a JD. She makes twice as much as I do right now (though that wasn't true until she graduated recently).
Most real men don't know what they really want and need to be taught. What they want is life instead of fear. My wife is mine.
Message from Ethesis (Steve M)
Who doesn't want to win arguments? If I want to win all of the time but only end up with a .500 batting average that isn't bad. You can't tell me that any debate you start you don't want to win just as bad. My comfort, or lack there of, in talking to women has nothing to do with how many degrees are hung on their wall. One of my best friends speaks 10 languages and she is by far the one I enjoy talking to the most. And I know that this isn't a phenomenon limited to me, because she never seems to have a problem finding a social engagement to occupy her time on the weekends.
Me, and the mo men I hang out with, may be juvenille punks at time, as evidenced by our interesting ways of having fun, but are far more accepting than we are given credit for. Hell, one of my friends that I used to think was only after the next gorgeous blonde has finally settled on a girl that is more cerebral than any of the girls he's gone out with. Maybe I'm just associating with a higher class of dudes than those that exist in the normal population of mo men.
Message from dJake
When I was living in Cleveland, Ohio, this area authority came and visited all the single people, and told the gals if they were over a certain age and wanted to marry outside the faith, go ahead, if the guy would make a great husband, meet the qualifications, would respect her faith. I wish I could remember what the certain age was, or what the other qualifications were for this theoretical nonmormon husband, but I wasn't at that conference, I was already married and firmly esconced in the hell that is husband-who-cannot-live-within-his-means. My girlfriend, young, sassy, lds, and black, was over the given age, and soon afterwards married fabulous guy, not mormon, and had such a lovely wedding. After I moved, I lost track of fabulous lds/nonlds couple, but if they're miserable now I really don't want to know.
It makes sense to me, that it makes more sense to marry a wonderful man who will appreciate you, and enjoy the blessings of marriage and children, than to wait by the temple phone. Did Eve make all the right choices?
In New Mexico, my married friend shocked me by saying if she ever for some reason remarried, she wouldn't marry a mormon guy again. She had already done that.
I struggle with my hatred, the fact my signature is on tax returns filed by a guy who won't pay his taxes, to the federal tune of many years more than I could earn, especially with my handful of children. I keep playing the game, doing my best, hoping to make this ship turn a corner. Sometimes, despite my resolve to keep my head in the game, I think how I'd like to divorce and try another life. Or have a stupendous car accident. Or what to say to my daughters about marriage.
the state should no longer require blood tests. It should require disclosed credit reports.
Of all my reasons why I don't leave, and all the ways I think I might have lived my life differently, I don't know how you get from dating to married with a nonmormon guy, celibate till the honeymoon. Also, I've never lived in New York. Also, never been in graduate school. So I am uniquely unqualified to give advice.
Only you, my dear, have the gift of your life, and gift to make the most of it. The choices are yours. May angels attend you.
Message from Johanna
FTR, single women and women married outside of the Church CAN be exalted. That is, they can inherit the celestial kingdom. They will not inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, but they will be in the celestial kingdom nevertheless.
As well, I want to say that you should be very, very careful about entering into a inter-religious marriage. I don't care if such a marriage is LDS-Jewish, Catholic-Baptist, or Muslim-Buddhist, ANY inter-religious marriage should only be entered into after much deliberation, counsel and discussion.
When I was called on a mission to Utah, I was at first quite disappointed. I wanted desperately to learn a language and be immersed in a significantly different culture. However, partway through my mission, I realised the benefit of serving where I did.
I saw hundreds of inter-religious marriages. Literally hundreds. Out of that number, only a very small handful saw both couples active in their individual religions. The majority of the time, both couples ended up not being religiously committed at all, or one of the couple ended up converting over—or at least participated in—the religion of the other. In the case of the latter, it was most often the LDS member that converts over.
Inter-religious marriages can be very complex and very intense and have led to divorce.
I admit, that despite the large sample I experienced, it was based in just Utah, Nevada and Arizona. Perhaps things happen differently in NYC, but it is something to consider nonetheless.
Message from Kim Siever
JL, I understand your hesitation over dating/marrying non-LDS men. Although I am happily married, if I were single I think I would have a similar hesitation over dating/marrying non-LDS women. I think it would be as much a cultural as a religious concern.
If, however, nothing was happening in the LDS market, I think eventually I would overcome my hesitation and date (with the possibility of mmrriage) non-LDS. To me, intimacy (in all its forms) with another human being is essential to my happiness, and ultimately that would trump whatever religious/cultural issues were holding me back.
Message from Kevin Barney
Johanna, your post almost made me cry! Sadly, I know LDS couples in your situation. My heart goes out to you. Your comment on knowing someone's finances are worth noting.
I think the comments on entering a marriage where there are religious or cultural differences are worth noting. Those kinds of differences are important and are magnified when children enter the relationship.
Single LDS men can be arrogant jerks. I know, because I used to be one. :-) They know they have the advantage of numbers and take advantage of it. Add to that preisthood abuse, and it can become a real mess.
In all fairness, single non-LDS men can be arrogant jerks as well.
Whatever you choose, I hope you find joy in your marriage, whenever that may come.
Message from Anonymous
Marrying a believing Mormon is not a guarantee of anything. My DH and I were married in the Manti temple seven years ago. Now, I no longer believe. I go to sacrament meeting with him and the little boy, but that's the extent of my involvement with the church. I sometimes feel guilty that this man, who I love very much, is married to someone he never would have chosen seven years ago. He loves me, too, though, and we both have hope that everything will work out.
In my current faith-state, the only thing I believe for sure is that I have this life to be happy. I'm not going to give up my one sure shot at happiness - the life I have right now - for ice cream castles in the air.
Message from Ann
Ann,
Your experience and situation is very real and is mirrored throughout the Church.
Statistically, however, people who marry someone with the same religious beliefs—whether they are both LDS or some other faith—are more likely to stay together than those with differing beliefs.
Message from Kim Siever
I don't think I could know what I do without having been married. (For JL) It's fun to see what the women want. The only way to be able to be secure as a(n LDS) man is to know more than they all, and even then it's hard at times.
And Kim, I find your first paragraph offensive. I hope you can forgive the mud, JL.
Kim, I understand your thoughts about the Celestial Kingdom and all, but I really do not think that you understand very much about what you are talking about. If you did, you would be much more careful in talking about it.
Read D+C 132 and see what it's talking about that is required for "Exaltation". Exaltation means, literally "to be lifted up", right? Lifted up from where to where?
Forgive the descent into doctrine, to use the anonymous alliteration of a Maxwellian metaphor, JL.
And, JL, if school's getting you down--why not take a trip?
Message from Shyguy
Whoa! I spend the day babysitting college students and come here to find quite the interesting discussion going on. Here's my two cents on this stuff.
Yes, inter-religious marriages are probably difficult, all the more so if both spouses are practicing. It also adds complications and issues to a marriage which is hard enough without those complications built in. I also know that I can never understand exactly what that's like unless I experience it.
Regarding bad credit, my future husband will be marrying into huge debt but I'm very honest about it and will be happy to show my dates my student loan records.
I'm sorry if I've offended any single men out there. I know you struggle too, probably in different ways. But I am not the mormon ideal woman because I'm 28 so I can't have lots of babies, I have career ambitions, I have lots of opinions and like to express them. I'm liberal and a feminist, I have lots of debt, I have lots of emotional baggage from my messed up family in addition to chronic mental illness, I usually win arguments with the lay people, I'm irreverent in humor and demeanor, and I'm sure there are other things that make me undesirable. Including that I blog about my dates. :-)
I've been in conversations with single guys at church events and as we discuss what we do I can see them shut down when they hear I"m in a PhD program. It doesn't take long for them to excuse themselves and find someone less educated to talk to. I've also experienced that these guys say they want someone sassy and independent but then they marry the sweet submissive girls anyway.
Ethesis, you are the exception rather than the rule.
LDS Single men out there, please tell me there are some of you that would like a woman with the *faults* [sic] I listed above. Please restore my faith in the members of my faith.
ShyGuy, You may not have been reading this summer but I took a long trip to Ireland that I was hoping would refresh my soul enough that I could work again. It wasn't enough. I'm probably going to take a leave of absence very soon.
Message from JL
I am personally very grateful that my wife decided not to marry the Gentile guy who was in love with her when she was frustrated with Mormon guys and willing to consider marrying outside the faith. It is a difficult situation, and it takes a certain amount of chutzpah (since we have a Yiddish theme here) to seriously consider the possibility. I have to admitt that this is one of the (many) reasons that I find my wife so attractive. I am still glad that in the end she decided she wanted to marry a Mormon guy.
Message from Nate Oman
Shyguy,
Actually, I know very well what I was saying. It is not required for a man or a woman to be married to enter the celestial kingdom. For them to enter the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, then they need to have entered into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage (see D&C 131:1-4).
If you consider my first paragraph offensive, keep in mind that I offered no commentary or opinion in that paragraph. I only stated doctrine.
Message from Kim Siever
Well, JL, I'm already married, but if it helps at all I think the description you give of yourself above sounds wonderful. It may be a minority of LDS guys who will find your intelligence, sense of humor and strength appealing, but they are definitely out there.
Message from Kevin Barney
I am still glad that in the end she decided she wanted to marry a Mormon guy.Same here. Funniest thing is tha the name "John" is a traditional name in my family line -- all the way back to John Marsh, a slave (indentured servant) with the William and Mary company. So, I wanted to name my first son John. That is also the name of the non-LDS guy my wife was engaged to at one time. Didn't bother me, but it got mooted as we had girls.
On guys in law school.
When I was single in law school, we had the Alfonso Bedoya society -- the unmarried guy frat at the JRCLS.
They got it running again and started setting us up with girls from the sor, er, service clubs. As one guy remarked, "If I wanted a French Poodle, I'd just go to a pet store." They fit the list you had above.
Then we had an activity where some Stake President who had set it up had a big suet eating grin, if you know what I mean. The moment he got going, the girls all looked annoyed, though he was pleased as he could be to have gotten one over on us by setting us up with all the old maids in his stake.
His grin didn't last and the womenfolk calmed down as they realized that none of the guys were acting had or annoyed. Finally, real women! We didn't have any more activities (and had run out of Coveys and general authorities too, though we still had A.H. King, the author of Hubner and others in the wings, and used for a different group). They guys weren't interested in risking any more fluff when they had substance.
It was interesting.
Yes, there are LDS guys who have never grown up and still want the girls they chased when they had just come off of their missions or just left High School.
But there are a lot of serious guys too, trying to make something of themselves, who are interested in real people.
Though for myself, without a miracle or two, I'd have never married my wife -- wouldn't have even looked at her. She looked too fluffy. Wasn't, mind you, but looks can be deceiving. Took two years of people trying to set us up before two of my friends got together and took the direct approach of threatening raw force to get me to skip a work-out and go to a party.
I started talking and several hours later was in love, though I didn't recognize it. We met in October, I turned 29 in December and got married in January.
I've been so glad God intervened ever since.
Anyway, enough rambling.
Message from Ethesis (Steve M)
I should set you up with my friend B. From the sounds of it you two are perfect mirror images of each other. I know the whole opposites attract thing is what really makes the chemistry, but in some ways it has to be better the other way around.
As for me, I could see your list of faults and probably raise you a couple. That said, my impression is that your qualities far outweigh the things you claim as faults.
Message from dJake
dJake,
So who is the friend of yours, where is he? If he's crazy like me that's ok, but I'd insist on adopting if we got married so we didn't pass on crazy genes.
Message from JL
i'd say, if the person you talk about is a good guy, someone who is a guy worth respecting person, go for it. Somehow, seeing as how iI am a convert, I dont share Kim Siever's opinion, that marrying outside one's faith inevitably leads to disaster. And I do understand your concern about what a lot of single LDS men seem to be looking for, and I find that , in a sense , kind of a rather antideluvial attitude, Kinda like my overly pious LDS housemate who wont clean up afterhimself, becasue that is "women's work"!!!
I say, JL. go for it!!! More power to you!!!
And as a single lDS guy, who having reached the gae of 30, hasbeen kicked out of a YSA Ward to a family Ward wherehe is the only single guy, I think I may have to look outside my faith to find a life partner. Becasue, in my experience, the typical Mormon woman looking for a hubby is looking for someone younger, and with good prospects, with the potential to ensure material comfort, which at my state in life, I am unable to od. So, for m e it will probably mean marriage with someone who , sadly, isnt Mormon.
So it goes.
Message from ronin
Well, JL, if you want to come to Germany sometime, let me know. I'll hook you up.
Message from Shyguy
B has been a friend of mine for over 4 now, and as luck would have it, he's kickin it out at NYU doing the law school thing. I dunno about the whole adopting thing, because from his side of the equation you'd have some dang good looking kids.
Message from dJake
He's actually in NY? So what's his story, how many girls is he dating?
Message from JL
Not dating any girls that I know of. His story? First year law student, doing what I expect most first year law school students are doing. Studying, trying to graduate at the top of his class and trying to have some fun in the process.
Message from dJake
FTR, ronin, It wasn't my opinion I was stating. I was stating what I observed, not what I beleived.
Message from Kim Siever
dJake,
I'm intrigued. Why don't you email me if you think you're friend might be interested.
Message from JL
Kim, I think the problem was not in the doctrine you stated, but in the manner of delivery. While what you said was technically correct, it implied a certain level of judgement or absolutism that I don't think you meant at all.
Or, while it is true that unmarried people can not enter the highest level of the CK, how are we to know in this life who will or will not be sealed in the next. Much of the speculation as to how this works is theoritical. And the very idea of temple work shows that we can not know who will or will not be sealed in this life to the next.
Message from Lisa
As a married woman of ten years (yikes, I am WAY too young to say that, they marry babies around here), I think WHO you marry is much more important that WHAT you marry. If that makes sense.
I think it really comes down to character. Is this man a person you can truly admire and respect. Do you know that he will admire and respect you. Does he have the skills and the interest to communicate. And is he honest with himself about his faults and your faults.
You get a guy like that and religion will still matter . . . It will matter a lot, but if you can communicate and respect each other as you negotiate your way through it, you'll be happy.
I don't think it does any good to try to second guess that whole salvation thing. Who knows the mind of God? You've got one chance to live this life, and if you can share it with a man who makes every day a joy to live in, if you live the best life you can, then you did your best and I don't see a merciful God looking poorly on that.
Message from Lisa
"how are we to know in this life who will or will not be sealed in the next"
Ahhh...but they would no longer be single, would they? ;-)
Message from Kim Siever
exactly
Message from Lisa
Agreed with Kevin -- I'm married and off the market myself, but I think your description sounds great. There's a definite contingent of LDS guys who find smart, articulate women to be attractive.
Nate,
It's not entirely clear what you find attractive. Was it her chutzpah in being willing to buck tradition? Or her eventual decision (very good for you) not to?
Message from Kaimi
JL,
Would you be so kind as to order the following scenarios in order of preference:
Find a great Mormon guy with whom you fall madly in love and then marry.
Find a great non-Mormon guy with whom you fall madly in love and then marry.
Find a decent Mormon guy you like well enough and then marry.
Find a decent non-Mormon guy you like well enough and then marry.
Find a schmuck Mormon guy you tolerate and then get married.
Find a schmuck non-Mormon guy you tolerate and then get married.
Never get married. Ever.
Message from Davis Bell
I can totally relate. I recall turning 30, getting booted out of the singles ward, having no real way to have a social life, and wondering what to do. I ended up dating a lot of non-members, trying to develop some of the social skills I'd lacked (especially my shyness). It was great and worked far better than I ever would have imagined. I ended up dating models, getting invited to trendy parties, and so forth. I even dated some ex-girlfriend of Brad Pitt.
However at the same time, I ended up doing a lot of things I regretted. Further, as much fun as I had, I wasn't any closer to finding someone who could be my soul mate. So while I was finally dating a lot, and dating in ways that I thought only happened on TV, it was a fleeting happiness. Finally I realized I had to stop doing that and got out of it.
I think the Lord really was watching out for me as only a few months later I met my current wife who is a member and I just had a new baby a week or so ago. Believe me, holding him in my arms is an amazing experience. I'd lost my faith in ever thinking I could have that experience the way the Lord wanted. That's how I ended up in the straits I was in.
So I guess my answer is to really pray about it. In hindsight I think I had to experience some of the things I did. Further it probably was the only way to develop the way I probably had to. But it is so easy to go astray. So be careful, whatever you decide to do. But I can completely understand your feelings. At the time I got the boot I'd not been on a date for several years. Further I was undoubtedly more clueless on some of my dates such that I'd fit right into some of your stories here as the guy to get heaped on. But the one thing about the future is that you never know how things will turn out. We all change, often in ways we can't anticipate. And God always is watching over us.
Message from Clark Goble
Sure Davis,
Find a great Mormon guy with whom you fall madly in love and then marry.
Find a great non-Mormon guy with whom you fall madly in love and then marry.
Find a decent Mormon guy you like well enough and then marry.
Never get married. Ever.
The other things I don't consider options. I know what a bad marriage looks like. I'd rather be single. I'm not sure marrying someone I only like is a good idea either. But I won't rule it out.
Message from JL
Clark,
How did you meet your wife?
Message from JL
I did what everyone rips on and went to the singles ward with my roommates - despite being too old. (Nearly 35 at the time) I avoided the younger women, although I was hit on a few times. My roommate's family home evening "mom" was this cute redhead with a wicked sarcastic sense of humor. She was fun to talk to and a little fiery. Plus I have to confess to my baser instincts - I always had a thing for redheads and she was the hottest girl in the ward who wasn't some "girlish" woman just out of high school.
Of course we'd been dating a while before she found out how old I was...
Message from Clark Goble
Hold out, then.
Message from Davis Bell
I think your blog is totally sexy : )
And the rest of your "faults" sound pretty groovy, too. There are mo guys who want a real woman. But a bit like with philosophy jobs, you're playing the odds a bit, so you'll have to make the call how long you're willing to keep looking before seriously investing in a non-mo relationship that could lead to marriage. Religion matters, but I think your list of preferences is right. I think you should look at the guy's heart. Remember Christ said at judgment there will be people who say, "When saw we thee naked, and clothed thee?" -- they didn't know they were following Christ, but they were because they showed pure love.
Message from coriander (single mo guy)
First of all, I can attest that there are Mormon men who date and marry smart women--I'm married to one of them! My husband always (well, almost always) wanted to date the smartest and most interesting women--and as a result he was a very hot commodity among a certain female LDS population. (I have no idea how I got lucky enough to be chosen.) (Well, I'm smart, educated, outspoken, beautiful and affectionate... so I guess I see his reasoning.;)) Seriously, I really think there are LDS men out there who would love to date you.
The question is, would you date them? Because I had to revise my expectations somewhat when I was dating. Intelligence was always my chief requirement--but it seemed like certain LDS men, very smart competitive ambitious confident men, really *didn't* want to date women who were their intellecutal equal. (My own brother is an example of this--his wife is sweet and lovely, but not his intellectual equal, and he never dated girls who were.) Instead, I found that the men who really valued intellect tended to be late bloomers, ones who maybe hadn't been the super-star in high school, weren't cuttingly competitive or insatiably ambitious; men like my husband, who didn't really bloom intellectually until college and graduate school. (He's currently in the most competitive research-track medical residency in the country, so as you can see he's filled out nicely.:))
Finally, it's absolutely true that there are unhappy LDS marriages and happy non-LDS or mixed marriages. But for a time I was involved in an internet community in which I got to know the intimate family situations of many non-LDS women (the way you can on the internet), and I was shocked and saddened again and again at what jerks so many of the husbands were, in big and small ways. I truly think that, for their many faults, LDS men are in some ways better prepared to undertake a happy and harmonious family life.
Message from Rosalynde
I came late to this thread so I don't know if anyone's still paying attention. Here's my take.
Compared to most who post here, I am an old wizened guy who just turned 50 and has been married over 20 years. I'm a lawyer, former Sunstone devotee, and quite familiar with LDS debates over the life of the mind and so forth. My message: If you want to maximize your chances for happiness as a committed LDS person (and I think that that's who you are and what you want, JL) then marry someone who agrees with you about what is really important in life. I was briefly married (3 years) to a fine LDS woman who did not care about the gospel as much as I did. She left because she "just didn't want to be part of the Church the way you do." (I was stunned. Call me young and obtuse.) Since then, I re-married and it has been over 20 years of happiness. I married someone very feisty, strong, independent and smart, who is in every important way my equal (something my patriarchal blessing told me would happen, a promise of which she gleefully reminds me often). What I was looking for the second time was someone who thought the same things were important that I thought were important-- namely, being faithful members of the Church (as we both defined that), raising children that way, and loving, serving, and being committed to one another.
There are bumps in the road and times when each of us would sell the other one for a nickel. (Those moments are pretty much gone now.) I think that's just life. But the way we approached marriage has been, for us, the recipe for happiness. Now that our kids are growing-- one is in college and prepping for a mission- we are starting to taste the real joy that comes from following that recipe.
Anyway, that is what has worked spectacularly well for us. I am very confident in recommending that approach to others! Good luck.
Message from Anonymous
Anonymous, I'm 48, but my experience is pretty much the same as yours (well, married almost 20 years, but only once, but the important thing was that the things that are important to us are the same).
Well said post.
Message from Ethesis (Steve M)
Thanks for the great comments you latecomers. :-) I hope more people besides myself read them.
Message from JL
I recently left the Church, mostly over the issue of (temple) marriage and the theories surrounding it. I came to the conclusion that love is more important than affiliation. Being single until the age of 35 + in the church is no picnic. You're pretty much put in limbo/a holding pattern, your social and emotional life is stunted, and you tend to discriminate against good people who just don't happen to worship the same way you do.
Now that I'm in a relationship with someone who's never been Mormon, I'm finally treated like an adult (and I can treat my partner as an adult) without worrying about investing in my my "eternal future". I wouldn't have it any other way.
Message from Not Saying
I recently left the Church, mostly over the issue of (temple) marriage and the theories surrounding it. I came to the conclusion that love is more important than affiliation. Being single until the age of 35 + in the church is no picnic. You're pretty much put in limbo/a holding pattern, your social and emotional life is stunted, and you tend to discriminate against good people who just don't happen to worship the same way you do.
Now that I'm in a relationship with someone who's never been Mormon, I'm finally treated like an adult (and I can treat my partner as an adult) without worrying about investing in my my "eternal future". I wouldn't have it any other way.
Message from Not Saying
DJake, did you ever set your friend up with the Celibate?
We need to find her a good LDS guy.
Message from Ethesis (Steve M)
JL,
When I talk about knowing the credit report of your potential mate, I'm not talking about your graduate school debt! My dh has outspent his large income every year of our fifteen years of marriage, he doesn't keep track of his paperwork, remember his debts, or feel obligated to pay them when they show up. This is either very much a character issue or a mental illness problem--I'm still not sure which.
Message from Johanna
I've been looking for a site on bad credit loan people student too! Get a free Credit Repair report at my site!
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